Welcome to the Telling of Story Podcast. I’m your host, Storyteller Jewels, and along with my guests, it’s my endeavour to explore the art and science of storytelling, to attract, engage, and retain a business audience, and to unpack why it works for some, and not for the many that try.

Listen in as Lisa talks about calling out microaggressions.

Lisa: So I think it’s about calling it when you see it. Even the little microaggressions as we call them. Like a bloke’s toxic or he’s a bit short, but not in a don’t speak to her like that, just like if you’re at a party and a bloke snaps at his wife, are you all right mate? Doesn’t seem like you. Maybe that’s an opening.

And like they say, someone leaving someone abusive is a process. But I think these conversations are a process. At first, he might just say, yeah, I’m fine. You see him again and go, you’re all right. You seemed tense last time I saw you. And it’s an opening.

Jewels: In this episode, I have the pleasure of talking with Lisa McAdams. Lisa is an executive coach and trainer specializing in training on creating psychosocially safe workplaces, trauma informed communication and DFA strategies. Recognize and deal with toxic workplace culture and people with difficult personalities.

With a decade of experience in training and coaching within workplaces, including ASX 500 companies, government, NGO, and the NFP sector on the traits of bullies, the complex behaviours of abuse, the effects of trauma, and how to support employees dealing with abuse in the home and workplace. Lisa believes a psychosocially safe workplace is everybody’s right.

Lisa, welcome to the show. 

Lisa: Thank you for having me Jewels. It’s good to be here. 

Jewels: Lisa, tell me a bit about the journey leading up to Safe Workplace. 

Lisa: It started by accident. I was in a networking group that was high end because at the time I was a personal trainer and health coach and I thought there’s where I’ll find my clients.

And it was about the time that Rosie Batty’s son Luke was killed by his dad. And we, the discussion went round to. You know, there was talk of workplaces should do something about domestic violence and someone in the group said, Oh, that’s not a workplace responsibility. And I have what I call soapbox moments.

I don’t want them. I’m telling myself to be quiet in my head, but I was just, I just reeled off what a workplace could do. And because I had a history, but I also had a corporate career, bizarrely, even back at the turn of the millennium, that’s how old I’m getting. Even back then, I had a really supportive boss and ongoing when I was ready to leave and ask for help, I never doubted I would be believed because of her support.

So I was on this soapbox and I went for [00:03:00] five minutes and people were fascinated with my storytelling. So they let me and then when I left, this woman come up to me, Julia, who’s now my friend and said, Oh, my gosh. I work for EY, like Ernst Young. We need you in there. Within six months, I was working for EY on their policies, their training.

But then I became passionate because I thought this is necessary. And then sadly, as I did the job, And I’d already called my job Safe Space Workplace. I realized how unsafe a lot of workplaces are, psychosocially. So the passion just grew and grew and grew, and I think it was my passion because my big regret from my marriage ongoing, like, he moved me to Australia and he gave me two beautiful kids.

So, That I wonder what I could have done with my career. I was flying high when I quit it for him. So it’s always that. So I have this passion about women being financially [00:04:00] stable and being able to have a career because what we do, if you ask people about themselves, it will be in the top three answers.

It’s what they do for a living and it matters. So that’s where I started and it’s grown from there. And when I first started, it wasn’t a workplace thing. I spent a lot of time in the media, just hammering that workplaces have to do something. And then I became known as the expert on the authority on it.

And anybody that’s ever had that said about them, you sort of stand there and go, did they mean me? But that’s how it started. And it’s just grown and grown. And really it’s, we’ve grown with the environment. Psychosocial, when I started that, if somebody had said those words, everyone would have said, what is that?

And I would have said, I don’t know. It’s the, there’s now a word for it because. It, and it’s now legislation. 

Jewels: Can you just, for me and for the audience, can you just define soco social for me? 

Lisa: Soco [00:05:00] social is all the elements of safety, you know, if you think of physical safety, you know, you don’t have boxes in the way, but it’s about if there is bullying or a toxic workplace that people know where to report and they’re supported and bad behaviors aren’t encouraged.

It’s about. equal pay. It’s about diversity and everybody being included. It’s just about that being safe, like socially around you. So the people around you, you know, not everybody’s going to be a nice person, but you’re supported if they’re not, that your boss doesn’t have expectations, that even things like, you know, what’s expected of you work wise.

Do you know what I mean? You don’t get that and anybody who had a corporate career 20 years ago knows about that four o’clock on a Friday when you’re about to walk out and somebody says this report’s due. And it’s about that knowing your expectations, knowing, having the boundaries, being able to say I’ve shut off at six o’clock.

So it’s all the social and the [00:06:00] psychological coming together to be, create a safe workspace so you’re not stressed and burnt out. 

Jewels: Just so I understand, is this primarily. Uh, female orientation here, or is it not necessarily, is this relate to everybody? 

Lisa: It relates to everyone. It isn’t a gender thing. Uh, you know, obviously there’s certain pockets, you know, like I work with companies that have factories and things, and there’s people where English is their second language, obviously they’re more vulnerable.

But it’s inclusive of everybody and, you know, anybody that thinks all men are alpha men that strut into work and just demand what they want, haven’t worked in a workplace. And I get frustrated when people say, well, the men should always stand up. You know, men have the same fears. Men have mortgages and children to feed and the fears of what if I lose my job?

So it’s about everybody and it is about. A man being able to stand up for a woman, but at the same time, [00:07:00] anyone standing up for someone. So it’s a safe workplace where someone can feel safe to say, you shouldn’t be saying that. So it’s inclusive of everyone. It’s making everyone feel safe to be themselves.

And, you know, I get in a lot of trouble for saying this, but it doesn’t stop me saying it. A lot of the bullies in the workplace are women. You know, this isn’t a men treat women bad, let’s sort it out. It’s about everybody having respect for everybody. 

Jewels: It’s 2024. Why are we having this conversation, do you think?

And why Is it taking people like you to stand on your soapbox and really get it identified and brought into the workplaces? Is it something I’m missing? Like, even things like domestic violence, for example, seems to be on a growth path, if I’m not mistaken. Maybe that’s a media thing, I’m not sure. 

Lisa: No, it is.

increasing, but there’s also talk are more people disclosing, but we’re certainly the numbers of deaths. And you think from anyone [00:08:00] that knows me, I didn’t die, but it destroyed my life. I financially career wise, I was left, well, I wasn’t left with nothing. I have two children. I was left with the most important things, but no way to even feed them.

So it does destroy lives. But I think a lot of it is. The norms of society, like I remember growing up, what goes on behind closed doors stays behind closed doors. So although we’re in 2024, I don’t think we’ve really been dealing with this and Rosie Baddie coming out and saying I’m not going to be blamed for this.

And she was by the media initially. They said the report what that came out was she went the opposite direction. To her son being, you know, killed by his dad. Do you know where she was going? There was an ambulance there. So she thought if I get the ambulance over there, they’re going to be way more use.

And she missed that chance to say goodbye, trying to get him help. But the media tried to blame her. But I think even in workplaces, it was so accepted. [00:09:00] Do You do as you’re told and all the things we used to do, like you don’t discuss pay, what, in case I find out I’m not being paid as much as the person doing my same job.

So I think, and we’re talking about the workplace a lot now because finally it is in legislation. So it is, you know, workers comp is getting to, more psychological things are going through workers comp than ever before. But I think there’s just, an unwillingness to really, especially with domestic violence, there’s an unwillingness to really take it on because there’s no three year plan, there’s no four year plan, and the government’s like, we’ll throw money, but they just move money about.

This is a good 30 year plan, but I think it’s improving because we know it’s so bad, if that makes sense. But it frustrates me, like, this is a gender one, but in 1792, Mary Shelley said, women don’t want power [00:10:00] over men, they simply want power over themselves. I still have that argument every week. Why do I want to control men?

I don’t. I just want, and I have a son and a daughter. I want the same autonomy for my daughter. And by that, I mean, I don’t know if you want people to know that, but our children went to school together. So, you know, my children, I know you’ve got both. I want my daughter to be a safe walking home from the station as I know my son is.

That’s simply all I want. I don’t want to have to say to her, don’t you walk home from the station. I’ll get you or your brother will, but that’s the reality. But I think there’s an unwillingness. to accept it. And even working in it, I find it hard to really take it on that this is happening. And I think even like, it’s been nine years since I started this and the first three or four years of my job was convincing workplaces that it was that something they should help with.

And I think COVID’s changed a lot because You know, and I think [00:11:00] it goes back to when, you know, we all got the internet and we all got and for a long time work expected you to work from home, but your home life was none of their business. And that was. a joyride they didn’t know was going to end. And now that’s where all these laws are coming into play.

You’re like, if you want in people’s homes, then you’ve got to look after them in their home. So I asked your question, I don’t know why it’s not a national emergency that women are dying at the rate they are. A lot of it is, I think, you know, compassion fatigue. And we do go that that’s too much. But I do think we’re making ground the fact that now workplaces are expected to keep people psychologically.

I think I had a conversation the other day about, I don’t know, my mum left my dad in 1981 and he was very abusive and like the [00:12:00] opportunities I’ve had to grow and heal and you know, friends. Imagine my mum in the seventies going to a doctor and saying, I think my husband’s a bit cruel and I’m depressed.

She would have said, take a Valium and go home and cook him a dinner. Yeah. Give him a nice meal, that’ll cheer him up. So, yeah, we’re getting there, I think. But why we’re not there, my simple answer is, and I’m a big advocate of this, I don’t know. It makes no sense, like you say. 

Jewels: Is it, do you feel like it is a generational thing?

Like if you were to split the audience into, you know, You know, pre 1990 and post 1990, do you think it’s getting better? Like, is there some light to say that the next generation perhaps isn’t taking on the traits and some of those old world beliefs that we grew up with, certainly? 

Lisa: I do think we have a lot to thank the millennials for.

I genuinely do. I know they take a lot of stick. But I remember being in a meeting and this millennial was saying, they just [00:13:00] said, and you know, we’re of the pre 1990s, they said, can you take on this project? And she sat there, she went, Oh yeah, sure. Can you let me know what you’re taking off my workload?

Like just this presumption. I would have just thought, Oh God, I was going to go away for the weekend. That’s how we were raised. You, you do as you’re told. And I think, you know, we can thank Generation X as well, because like, and I know I’m not the only one. When I was raising my children, there were negotiables and non negotiables.

Like sometimes I would literally encourage them to debate with me. You know, that I would say the words, this is non negotiable. And they would know, just do as you’re told. Because we were brought up, you do as you’re told when you’re told. So if somebody said, oh, your pay rise is 2%, You know, thanks, but they’ve been raised different.

They’ve been raised to have opinions and I think it’s feeding through the workplace and they will just move on. And I think sadly for what I do. There’s still, [00:14:00] you know, when we look at the gig economy, I, I still think for, you know, the lower socioeconomic things aren’t getting better at all job, you know, like Amazon will say, you know, Oh, you can make money in your spare time as a delivery driver.

No, that used to be a job that came with pension and all the, you know, your super. And I think in corporate it’s the millennials going. Well, you can’t stress me out like that. That’s too much work. And they will, like I would just have sat in a meeting and, you know, I would have quietly said to my boss afterwards, or even not very quietly, you never told me that.

But they will say it in the meeting and everyone knows that now. They will just say, I’m sorry, you did not inform me of that. And I think they’re what’s changing it because they will call it out when they sit, not all of them, obviously, but I do think their expectations. of being treated well are better.

But I will say for the lower and the young ones, [00:15:00] the lower socioeconomic and the younger ones, they have also come to expect worse behavior. You know, you can work one shift a month, heaven help you if you’re not available for that one, two hours, because this is your job. So I think in some ways it’s getting better.

And I think once you’ve got a career, it’s better. And I think You know, it’s something I’m quite passionate about, and I’m actually starting Instagram, kicking and screaming, I don’t want to, but I really want to talk about the opportunities my Nan had versus my Mum, and then me, and then eventually when my daughter’s old enough to say if she wants to be included, I’d love her to come in on it, because we forget how far we have come.

My Mum left, got married in 1961, and her boss, her in laws, her parents, and Her husband, my dad, said she should leave her job. It was unseemly for a married woman to be working. She refused. Absolutely [00:16:00] refused. She was 19. At 19, if someone had said, you’ve got to leave, I would have gone, okay. So I think we are standing on the shoulders of people that want to change.

And I do think there’s been a lot of men, and there still are, a lot of men that say, I want more for everyone. And I think feminism has been so good for men, and we don’t talk about it. Thank you. You know, like I know, because I know you were the football coach because I got sacked because you wanted to.

Never been so happy to be sacked from a job in my life as when you took over coaching that team. But, you were there with your kids. I mean, my dad’s generation, they were the ones working. It was always the mums. So it’s given, you know, you know your kids probably way more than your dad knew you. because they’re out working and doing it.

So I think society is changing, but it takes time. And I also think maybe that’s why, you know, at the moment, domestic violence seems to be getting worse because the [00:17:00] men that don’t want change, that were quite happy with that system where women didn’t have rights or money or a job or independence, aren’t enjoying this change.

You know, men like you are loving it. You’re saying, you know, I’ve got my work, I’ve got a balance with my children. I got to coach my kids soccer team. And I mean, and you did it from when they were very young. So you were at school at like three o’clock. That was opportunities fathers didn’t have. They came home and hardly knew these kids.

And at the weekend they had to fix the car and do all that. So I think society’s changed a lot. And I think there’s a lot of people that don’t want it to, but I do think there’s Many that do. And one thing I’ve learned in the nearly 20 years since I left my ex husband is there are way, way more good men than bad.

And I think if we can get past this narrative, and I’m not one that it’s the men’s fault even, but [00:18:00]we need to tell the story in a different way that doesn’t make men feel attacked, you know, all men feel attacked. Because the storytelling is not, you know, being on a podcast, the storytelling is not working.

If, if we’re still having the same arguments, then we need to find a different way to tell the story. Because I know many, many men that are maybe even more offended than I am by it, because they feel like, It’s so abhorrent to them that somebody would treat somebody more vulnerable than them in that way.

And we also have to accept And this is something I get into so much trouble for Jewels that men are abused as well, you know, like it’s one in 16 men. And if I talk about that, I get shut down. But if we get the women’s number to that, which is a dream, but we’re not going to go. Oh, one is 16. We’re home and hose.

Let’s give up. And yeah, men don’t often get the opportunity to leave if they’ve got kids because they’re not taking the kids with them. But I think we need to look at. Everybody, we [00:19:00] don’t, we need to stop stereotyping all of it and have a conversation that really is. It’s inclusive of everyone. 

Jewels: Tell me a little bit about that storytelling side, like what are the stories that we are telling ourselves or perhaps we’ve grown up with that shape us in a certain way versus what potentially, I don’t know if you have the answers to this, but what are the new stories that we do need to be telling?

Telling out there. I mean, you mentioned that when you first started the business, you had to educate workplaces that this is actually important and hopefully that’s now shifting, but what, tell me a little bit about the storytelling that we need to tell both at a corporate level, but also at a, at a personal level.

Can start shifting the dial. I mean, like you said, this is not a one year, two year, three year exercise. It’s a 30 year plan. So it’s, it’s changing the psyche of not just one generation, but probably the next two or three in order for it to shift properly. What does that sound like? What do we need to [00:20:00] start thinking about today?

Lisa: I think we need to start really thinking about, and especially in corporate and well, and in life in conversations, because, you know, we’re not going to eradicate men that abuse women from the workplace with, you know, they’re here. We can’t, even if you wanted to change as a man, if people are calling you a monster and all of those stories, you’re not going to reach out for help.

And where did these, and I know, like, one of my abusers was my own brother, but I also was there in his childhood. He went from a victim to a perpetrator like that, and no one ever said, do you want some help there? So, we’ve got to start having a narrative, and it’s always a buzzword. That’s my big thing, like, we were on financial abuse for ages, and then we were on, you know, coercive control.

And now we’ve moved on to nearly everybody you talk about, you know, everything you talk about, everybody’s a narcissist, despite the fact that it [00:21:00] is a psychiatric illness that needs to be diagnosed by a psychiatrist. Everybody seems to be able to diagnose, but it is actually a mental illness. I mean, you wouldn’t say that about a different, oh, that person’s depressed, what a monster.

So if we’re not encouraging men to change, Or men to have conversations with men. Do you know what I mean? Men have got to be part of this solution, but it’s always said in a way that’s almost accusatory. I mean, you wouldn’t go next door and say, my party was a failure, you should have turned up. Like, how inviting, but we need to start having the conversation.

Why do men do this? I mean, how dark has it got to be inside you if you’re prepared to kill your family and then yourself? I don’t know. I mean, we talk about what a monster, but where got them there and where at the point, and I’m not saying there’s a lot of men now that are too far gone, but where in their history could we have got in and said, let’s get you liking yourself.

[00:22:00] Let’s get you changing. So you don’t go on this trajectory. Like, With my ex, the thought of me leaving sent him spiraling. I don’t think he even liked me very much. But he needed me to control. So where in his history could someone have stepped in instead of saying he’s a bad person and got him help? And can they?

But we’re not having those conversations. We’ve got men’s behavior change, and I know from my childhood and everything, I wasn’t the mother or the person I wanted to be, and I still go. I was in therapy for years, and I mean intense therapy, and you don’t go to therapy, you do therapy. And this thought that, Somebody that can be that destructive, not, and I’m not diminishing what happens to the partner, I was that partner for all the people that are going to come at me.

You’re not, nobody was going to change my ex in 12 weeks, but we’re not having those conversations. And I think it’s the word help. People think, see what they’ve done and [00:23:00] go, why would we want to help them? Well, we want to help them because we want to save women’s lives. But there’s like a narrative of, you’re with men or you’re with women.

And I’ve actually been asked to my face, do I want women to die? And the comment I made was they said, do women abuse was a question from the audience. And I said, well, in answer to that, I will tell you it’s a huge problem in the lesbian community. And apparently that was me encouraging. So I think we’ve got to be brave enough to say not all women are nice.

Not all men are bad. No, nowhere near all men are bad. Because. You know, men do get defensive and I don’t blame them, but it is difficult because you step out and like, even from this, I will probably get the toxic men coming at me going, it’s good that you support us. And I’m like, no, I don’t support you ever hitting or hurting anyone.

Or, you know, not even just hitting, you know, controlling someone. I’m not down for that at all, but we’ve [00:24:00] got to broaden the conversation and say, how do we help men help themselves? And women, you know, people that need to control people are very, very, very insecure, very insecure, very, have a very, very low sense of self.

By saying to that low sense of self, you know, like there’s a new campaign by the Telegraph that made me rage. It’s like, we’re going to start calling them cowards. Oh, that’s lovely. You put that all over the paper. You have everybody in the pub saying that, and at work saying that, and then you send these men home, like my husband would have come home, insulted.

Why not change that narrative to, don’t be a coward, be brave, reach out for help. It’s so simple. Make the brave bit reaching out for help. But where do they go for this help? Because what we’re doing is not working, Jewels. So make the people doing it part of the solution. And like I said about my mum and her valium and a nice dinner, where does a man go to say I [00:25:00] hit my wife and I don’t want to?

Do you know what I mean? In the workplace. We’re doing a lot of work to encourage, and it’s now my new soapbox, we’re doing a lot of work in the workplace to encourage victims to come forward. But there’s no work to encourage abusers to come forward and, and put them in the programs that can help them. 

Jewels: Do these programs exist at all?

Lisa: They’re hard to find. 

Jewels: Yeah. 

Lisa: They’re very hard to find and a lot of people in my world want it to happen. There are people to do it, but they’re still in a, you know, like there was, Yeah, there was a program and I’m going to call it out. It was, it was a lot about six years ago, call said, call me dad. And I was watching it, you know, professionally and they went to this group and the wives were going to a group and they literally said he was very tense and that, and I literally cringed up my sofa.

And the next scene was to, he went home and beat his wife up and his son. But I knew, [00:26:00] I knew that was going to happen. I was like, why did you send him home? Because these people weren’t educated enough to help them. And I think that’s where, where are the training programs? You know, where’d you go? Is there a TAFE course on, there’s trauma informed, we’re growing like trauma informed, what would that have meant five years ago?

And we need to say, and not all, you know, and I liken it to, you know, how we treat people with disabilities. Like some will always be dependent, will always have to live at home, will always, but we always used to treat them all the same. Now we know some can leave home, be And I think abusers are on that same spectrum.

I mean, my dream is, and I’ve been saying this for years, you start helping the ones at this end of the spectrum, and then the ones that are left are going to be so obvious, they can just all pick on each other. Because that’s the only people that will tolerate them. But until we start widening the conversation and getting these groups, because I have that, you know, people will come to me and say, there’s a really good program, I think, [00:27:00] in Melbourne.

I’ve got a man that wants help, where do they go? And I’m like, you know, send him to your EAP, because there’s just not the long, intense programs we need, and that will take funding. But then the whole field is going to arc up saying there’s women living in their cars, and we’re spending money on perpetrators.

But, you know, my history is finance, I’m very solution focused. I mean, if you work in finance and there’s a hole in your budget, you spend five minutes thinking about who did it and think, I’ll deal with that. They’re not doing it again. But then you’ve got to fill the hole. You’ve got to work out. You can’t keep going.

Well, it’s not fair. She spent the money. So why does she get more? But that’s the fight for funding. And I wouldn’t want to be the government that tries to put funding out for men’s programs. Because the need is too great. And I get it because like in Newcastle, they’ve started to police car parks. So women can sleep there safely at least two nights a week with their family in [00:28:00] their car.

So it’s going to take a lot of money. I suggest the government sell one of their five billion dollar submarines to someone and fund it, but it needs a different approach and it needs to be inclusive. 

Jewels: How does that narrative start from a individual perspective? You mentioned that Perhaps some people can actually recognize within themselves that they don’t like their own behavior and they don’t necessarily want to do what they’re doing.

And given a lot of these things I think, I believe, sort of happen in, in private, very privately, like, it’s not something that, you know, A man would certainly share with another man generally, so it’s not necessarily something that’s visible from the outside, like a mate might not spot it in another mate.

Lisa: No, and I think that’s the trouble, if the perpetrator doesn’t want people to see it, you won’t see it. You 

Jewels: won’t see it, right. 

Lisa: And like with my ex, everybody thought I was controlling. And he would set [00:29:00] up the narrative to make me look controlling. Like, he would say things at a party and I’d go, like, you’d let me decide who has the car.

But it was just things he was saying for other people. But I think, A lot of it, and I do think we’re starting to change, but I think men, with men in this conversation, it’s like now, if you did see, like that advert about the beer, when someone says to their six year old, go and get me a beer, now I think a man at a barbecue would go, mate, you shouldn’t be getting him to do that.

That’s not okay. And I think we need to, you know, like, even the men that are saying sexist jokes about their wife. You know, if you’re all there laughing and the wife’s laughing, that’s fine. But if you’re uncomfortable, say it. That’s my rule of thumb. Like I’m very much like it. Like people will say things in my world about men.

Do you know what I mean? Like, Oh, you’re not men like, and I’ll go, I’m raising a son. Thank you. He doesn’t need that white noise. So I think it’s about calling it when you see [00:30:00] it, even the little microaggressions as we call them, like a bloke’s toxic or he’s a bit short, but not in a don’t speak to her like that, just like if you’re at a party and a bloke snaps at his wife, are you all right, mate?

Doesn’t seem like you. Maybe that’s an opening. And like they say, someone leaving someone abusive is a process. But I think these conversations are a process. At first he might just say, yeah, I’m fine. You see him again, go, you’re all right, you seemed tense last time I saw you. And it’s an opening. He may say, mate, at home, I’m not the bloke you think I am.

I hate myself for it. What’s going on? You know what I mean? And I think for men, and I do think, I don’t know how men, which is why I love the fact that you do this about storytelling, because men were taught you don’t talk about your feelings. Men don’t need to talk about their feelings. It’s real. They’re humans.

Of course they do. But I think it’s about just starting with the little bits. Do I mean? If someone makes you uncomfortable, [00:31:00] do I mean? And even if, you know, somebody says a joke and you know, your wife’s there and you think that’s an inappropriate joke, you just gently say, can you not talk like that in front of my family?

Jewels: Breaking the cycle, right? 

Lisa: Yeah. Cause you’ll know from me, I will call it when my kids were little, I’d say, my kids are listening. It’s not appropriate. Leave it. But it could be a really little subject. You know, crude jokes were just something, you know, we were seen and not heard. It all just happened around us, but we’ve changed that as a generation.

Conversations you’ll have when it’s all grown ups are now very different. We don’t presume the kids weren’t listening. And I think it’s about calling out disrespect. And, You know, it is true, whatever you think of him himself, but, you know, the standard you walk past is the standard you accept. And I think instead of going, Oh, you shouldn’t be talking like that, what’s going on with your mate?

And I think there needs to be more places for men to [00:32:00] chat. Like we’ve got men shed, but, and I think that’s brilliant. Not all men want to build things. Do you know what I mean? That’s quite stereotypical, isn’t it? A man wants to go and make something and chat. That’s 

Jewels: me, man. 

Lisa: I know plenty of men that go, do I have to?

I don’t want to build anything, but where do men go? And men know the answers to these things. And I think historically it was not that I knew, I like a glass of wine, but historically it was always go to the pub. But we need to move past that. We need to have a pint to talk about it. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but we need to start thinking about, How do men support men?

And, you know, a lot of the work I’ve been doing in workplaces, and I would be a big advocate and I, you know, if there’s anybody out there that hears this, I would love to partner with a man because a lot of mine was, how do we support women going through it? Where are the same programs? How do we support men?

That are struggling because like you say, where are the programs you dig [00:33:00] deep, you find them and there’s people, I think that would love to set them up, but it all comes back to, you know, and we live in a capitalist world. It all comes back to money. 

Jewels: I mean, I would love to see a campaign that you just described similar to the six year old getting a beer.

Campaign that would be a, a simple start, I think that perhaps could have a big impact. It was a 

Lisa: long time ago, but the narrative hasn’t changed. There was an advert about abuse where a boy slapped his girlfriend. And like, if anybody slapped my daughter, I’d be, you’ve got girls, but it’s like he slapped her.

And then he had to have this huge tattoo saying he was a monster. He’s already obviously really messed up. So we’re just telling young boys. You do one thing wrong and that’s it, you’re marked for life, you’re damaged goods. Why not make that a different ending about, and I can’t think that when someone first does it, or when it, they do it, they feel good about themselves.

I mean, there [00:34:00] are people that don’t want to change. Like I said, it’s on the spectrum, but my brother left home well, before he was 17 and his exact words were, I couldn’t trust myself not to hit you. He didn’t want to be that person. So he left home at 16, but nobody told him how to change. Nobody told him what to do with all that anger that was in him from his childhood.

And I, you know, like, and a lot of it falls on women because, you know, You know, we’re in the space, but I have no idea, Jewels, what it feels like to be emasculated. I’m not masculine to start with, but there are men out there that can say, I don’t know how my brother felt being hit in front of his older cousins and called names by his dad.

I don’t know that injury, but I do know the little kid that was scared. But what do we do? We start with a campaign and we change the ending to that one with the tattoo. Why not change that ending to handing him a phone? But at the moment, who would they phone? And there is a [00:35:00] brilliant thing in Canberra and I would love it to go national called Men’s Link, and it’s literally an AFL players and rugby players and cricket players, they mentor young boys that are going down the wrong road.

To get them to trust and care, but there’s just not enough of those programs. 

Jewels: Changing tack just a little bit, can you tell me about the fabulous work you’re doing with corporates and what does that look like? What does that sound like? What, where do people start if they’re thinking about, you know, this is something we should be considering in our workplace?

Lisa: The work I do in corporates is very much from woe to go, like I consult on what policies they need, what support partners, and how to create an, a supportive environment. So how do you understand what someone going through abuse is like? How do you get them, you know, To reach out. And how do you accept that they need autonomy?

And also, how do you support your people supporting them? Like it’s a really hard conversation to hear what someone’s been through and then them saying, I’m not [00:36:00] ready to leave. And you know, they’re going home to that, but you can’t tell someone to leave. You can’t, and it’s leaving is the most dangerous time.

So you’re not even qualified. So I teach all that. Stay in your lane, but how do you help? How do you create an environment? And it’s sort of the same environments we’ve been talking about. How do you create an environment where people feel it’s safe to reach out? And it’s about, I always use that, and it still happens, sadly.

I always Talk about, if you were going to talk to HR or your boss about what was going on and you walked past some people at the corner telling a blonde joke, you might turn back and go to your office and think, Oh God, they already think I’m a dumb blonde. What on earth are they going to think if I tell them this?

So, and then it’s about policies. It’s about procedures. It’s about setting yourself up for success. And I have a top down approach because there’s nothing worse than teaching people that it’s safe to reach out when there’s nowhere to go. So I do it all. And now I do. You know, beyond it, like the psychosocial [00:37:00] is brilliant for me, because if I can get into a company and really create that, everything else, your mental health awareness, your men’s programs, when they come, your domestic violence, it’s all plug and play.

You’ve already set up your whole structure for people to be supportive. And one of the biggest problems in corporate is underutilization of the. Employee assist programs. They’re there. The psychologists are there. They’re paid for. But it’s so badly advertised and is still seen as something, you know, what will they think of me if I actually utilize this, that it’s about promoting.

Like really my job is going in, alleviating the pain and promoting the promise. Because if people don’t know what’s there, they’re not going to do it. So I like working with a company. You know, I do do just one off trainings and one off consultings and short training programs, but I like it when I can get into a company and go, right, what are we going to do?

And I always say, and this makes me sound old because nobody has paper copies, but. I always say, if you’ve [00:38:00] got a policy that you don’t enact, if it’s not a living document that people know about and comes with a really hearty procedure and processes, just put it in the shredder. I shouldn’t really say just put it in the trash in your computer now, but I’m old and I’m staying there.

So that’s the work I do and it’s really top down. And I’m lucky because I learned so much about what I do because when I first started doing it, like I said, I started with EY and worked with other really big companies. So, None of us knew what we were doing. They were like, we’ve got to do something. So I got these great minds and learn all about the processes, procedures, and how it works with this.

And it gave me an expertise that probably a lot of people don’t have because I’ve piggybacked off these brilliant brains in their area. But a lot of it is still promoting that it’s a good idea for the business. And I think the millennials, but the kids coming up in the next 10 years. They’re going to be looking for, you know, and especially like we were talking about house [00:39:00] prices.

They’re not going to go, well, I want a job where I can buy a house and two cars in ten years. They know that’s not possible. They’re like, who’s going to treat me well? Who treats people well? And people now say, you know, I want to work for an ethical company. And that starts at home in their corporate base.

Like, the kids coming up today won’t, if you invest in something they don’t agree with, they won’t take the job, however good it is. I mean, I can’t imagine a world where somebody had said, Oh, we’re going to use recycled paper, but it’ll mean you don’t get a new company car this year. I’d have gone, What? I don’t care what paper you use, I’ll pick blue next year.

But now I would. Now I’d say why, even without the paper, I would say, Why on earth do I need a new car every year? That’s a waste. We’ve got to think of the environment. So that’s what I do. But it’s about creating more than them understanding DV, because all of that, it pushes out to the experts. I am not an expert in helping someone.

And, you know, I know what worked for me and I’ve heard [00:40:00] lots of stories, but there are brilliant people, but it’s about helping them create a workplace where people feel safe to reach out. And it does save lives. And there’s so many things happening, like banks will move people to different States. To work out of a different branch for a while.

Hotels are starting to give their employees hotel rooms to live in. You know, it’s growing. And I think that’s why when I go in, we can always look at what can happen next. 

Jewels: Who’s engaging you and possibly more importantly, who’s needs to hear these stories, who needs to enact or take the initiative to bring on some of these policies and create it?

Is it the CEOs? Is it HR? Who’s? 

Lisa: Yeah. Oh, I think, well, it’s. diversity, equity, and inclusion that are usually my peeps, but it’s buying from a high level. And, you know, to do this properly, isn’t a cheap or a quick, you know, if you’re looking at really changing a psychosocial landscape, [00:41:00] especially if you’re over multiple branches and, you know, you’ve got factories or, you know, it’s a big, probably three year investment in time and money.

And it’s buying from the top that this long term process. is going to reap rewards because then you’ll have, you know, people will say to me, can you teach our leaders how to deal with a disclosure? Can you do it in 45 minutes online? I’ll say no. I mean, a bit of information can be dangerous, but there’s plenty of companies that will go, Oh, we do, you know, you can do it on an app five minutes a day for a week.

And then they look at the, and I get it. I’m from finance. They look at the budget, but you need really finance to get involved and do a proper, maybe I should do one, a proper trajectory of what, maybe that’s my next project, you know, a proper trajectory of what this is going to save because it will save money.

It saves money in absenteeism in losing employees. 

Jewels: What a win win though. [00:42:00] Like if it saves money and saves lives. 

Lisa: Yeah. But it’s getting that long term buy in from up top, which is the stories I need to keep telling now. This isn’t a nice to have, this is a nice for you to have, and a lot of things, luckily, because I’ve got quite a whole high profile, and I don’t even mind if it encourages them, but I’ll get people that go, Oh, can we have time for photos afterwards, but they know it’s good marketing, or they wouldn’t want to put me on their social media saying I’ve been in, so they know all these things, but when they look at the bill and the time commitment, and I know from finance, Their biggest commitment is if they’re saying, my staff are going to do all this training and all this work, they know that’s the biggest cost of any plan, you know, when people are pitching to the thing, they think that’s a lot of money.

But from a finance point of view, you’re thinking, well, their charge out rate is, oh God. And when I worked in corporate, that was my big [00:43:00] bugbear. Why are we having these high end meetings that go for hours? Do you know how much that cost you? And that’s what they’re looking at. They look at the figure to start with.

It can be a lot of money, four million for a global company. If they look what we’re going to introduce this, just Australia could be four to five. 100, 000 and then you, and that, and they go, Oh, it’s too much, but I mean, 500, 000 for this, isn’t a lot of money over three years, but that’s just the bill.

They’re then looking at changing the infrastructure and the other things that have to come and play. But once you’ve got that, not only are you going to attract the right staff, you’re going to get the right stuff. You’re going to like them. It is better to do it when you can, than when you have to. And sadly, a lot of companies are going to wait till their workers comp bill is huge And go, oops, but then they’ve already spent that money.

And it’s like I was saying before about the hole in the budget, the hole in the budget is what they’re spending on workers comp, it’s creating a place where they haven’t got the budget. And workers comp are [00:44:00] taking this seriously. I mean, 10 years ago, you said, I want to sue my company for stress. You know, you were going to get more stressed thinking about it, but the government are now going, this is an issue.

And I think the companies that are going to grow and see growth, even financially are the ones that are going to be progressive. about the way the world’s going. 

Jewels: Lisa, this is an unbelievably important issue and I’m glad you’ve gotten up on your soapbox as often as you possibly can because you’re brilliant at it and you must continue.

Where can the audience either reach out to you or find out a little bit more about you and what you do and the great work that you do? And Potentially bring you even for a conversation. Like what’s the pathway to you? 

Lisa: Well, one I’m on LinkedIn, but the best place to get me is at my website, safe space workplace.

And like any good website, there’s a scheduler call button everywhere where I could get one in. There’s one, just schedule a call. It’s just [00:45:00] literally, and it’s a call. And obviously I’m not just in business to chat initially is just for you to work out what your issues are. And a lot of it, you know, if you don’t know what the problem is, you don’t know the solution.

And that’s all I’ve done for nearly 10 years. I can see where your holes are. I know why people aren’t uptaking your EAP from an initial call. So just go on the website, schedule a call. You’re not committing to anything. And one of the things I’ve worked really high on is the ability to get leadership buy in.

And that comes from my financial background. I can talk to them about, and you know, businesses are, whether we like to admit it or not, they are responsible to their shareholders. That’s their job. So you’ve got to thing, but safe space, workplace. com schedule a call. Simple. We’ll have a chat. If you want another chat, we can have another chat.

If not, I’ll [00:46:00] catch me on my soap box. Next time I’m a bell. But, you know, a chat doesn’t hurt. 

Jewels: Lisa, like with any massive problem that needs a lot of change, it can feel and sound incredibly overwhelming. And I think anything like that starts with a single step, right? So take that step, have that conversation.

Maybe you might learn something and maybe you can make a difference too. So I really appreciate you coming on today. I know it’s a subject close to your heart clearly, and you’re very passionate about it. And I applaud you for the work that you do and, and you know, we’d need more of you and more people like you.

So thank you. 

Lisa: Thank you, Jewels. It’s been great.

Jewels: I am in awe of Lisa and the challenging work she has embarked on. A lifelong endeavor. One littered with challenges. We need to do better. Much love. Chat soon.